Is homosexuality a choice?
July 14th 2009 00:56
If you answered yes, I have a paradox I would like your input on...
First, I must confess, I heard this idea on a radio bit, I was channel surfing and didn't catch who mentioned it in a comedic way. When I heard the words I began to think, and a real paradox appeared.
So what is your answer? Do you believe homosexuality is a choice that is made, and can be just as easily unmade? Or do you hold that it's part of how a person is "wired?" I am confident that the latter is true, but there are oh so many who think the former. If you do believe that a person who leads a homosexual lifestyle does so only because it was what they "choose" I have a quandary for you to explain.
A qualifying statement first. Although I do accept the fact that homosexuality is much deeper than just a choice, I still wouldn't have any problem with people who made that choice. And I also accept that people who cannot accept it do so from their own weakness, not that of the person leading a homosexual lifestyle.
But on to the paradox. If it were true that a person chose to be homosexual, than it holds that others made a different choice. If one can choose to be homosexual, they must also be able to choose not to be. So what are they at the start? You know, before the "choice?"
If a person can choose their sexual orientation at will then it must be assumed that they are all starting from zero, so to speak. Maybe all people are born bisexual? Or unisexual? Or asexual? I'm serious, what explanation can there be, if sexuality is a choice to be made as a person comes to maturity, then that same person can't have the choice already made for them.
Or perhaps there is a simpler answer. Perhaps we aren't all made in the image of what someone imagines their god to be. Maybe, just maybe, we are all individuals with our own traits, or own foibles, and our own personalities?
What do you think? C'mon, doesn't that make more sense than thinking we all "choose" some so basic, so instinctual, as our sexuality?
First, I must confess, I heard this idea on a radio bit, I was channel surfing and didn't catch who mentioned it in a comedic way. When I heard the words I began to think, and a real paradox appeared.
So what is your answer? Do you believe homosexuality is a choice that is made, and can be just as easily unmade? Or do you hold that it's part of how a person is "wired?" I am confident that the latter is true, but there are oh so many who think the former. If you do believe that a person who leads a homosexual lifestyle does so only because it was what they "choose" I have a quandary for you to explain.
A qualifying statement first. Although I do accept the fact that homosexuality is much deeper than just a choice, I still wouldn't have any problem with people who made that choice. And I also accept that people who cannot accept it do so from their own weakness, not that of the person leading a homosexual lifestyle.
But on to the paradox. If it were true that a person chose to be homosexual, than it holds that others made a different choice. If one can choose to be homosexual, they must also be able to choose not to be. So what are they at the start? You know, before the "choice?"
If a person can choose their sexual orientation at will then it must be assumed that they are all starting from zero, so to speak. Maybe all people are born bisexual? Or unisexual? Or asexual? I'm serious, what explanation can there be, if sexuality is a choice to be made as a person comes to maturity, then that same person can't have the choice already made for them.
Or perhaps there is a simpler answer. Perhaps we aren't all made in the image of what someone imagines their god to be. Maybe, just maybe, we are all individuals with our own traits, or own foibles, and our own personalities?
What do you think? C'mon, doesn't that make more sense than thinking we all "choose" some so basic, so instinctual, as our sexuality?
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Comment by JESUS
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There is definetly a hard wired element to homosexuality which stems from family histories but mainly social factors influence sexual preference, what are your friends like, where do you hang out, what do you watch on tv, what are your parents like, are you religious, what were you exposed to as a child, these sorts of things real help shape your sexuality, trust me, I would know.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Comment by Cheryl J
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The problem seems that people are allowing their own prejudices, due mainly to religion, to push their own beliefs onto others. They are free to feel whichever way they choose to about it but they have no right to force their choices onto other people. Voice their choices and opinions, yes, force them, no.
How nice it would be if everyone were to live and let live. It will never happen but it's a nice dream.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Comment by Alexander Cekala
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So since the Bible is clear that Homosexuality is a sin, is not in question. The real question that is raised by any discussion of this type is to the the nature of the person or group being talked about. And this is where having the ability to exercise our God given rite to make a free will choice, becomes very helpful. While I'm hesitant to condemn the person, as that is not my job I will condemn the sin of homosexuality as it is condemned in numerous versus in the Bible.
It is my sincere hope regardless of the sin. That a person will find the strength in Christ to make the right Choices.
Comment by Cheryl J
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No disrespect to you Alexander, I'm glad you're putting a different persective on this but are you saying that if a person is born homosexual, because it is in the bible that homosexuality is a sin, it is a person's choice whether they follow the bible or to be true to themselves? Or did you mean you think homosexuality is a choice not that people are born homosexual? I'm just trying to get a better understanding on your meaning.
As I stated above, religion seems to be the big sticking point. As a non-religious person, I find it strange that someone would expect me to follow the word of the bible when I don't believe in it. I wouldn't expect anyone to follow my beliefs so I find it difficult that many religious people expect people to follow theirs. I'm a big believer in each to their own.
I think it must be especially hard for homosexuals who believe do in God. Personally, I believe that if there is a God, he would love all of his children regardless without condemnation.
Comment by Samantha Elley
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So with that I tread carefully but firmly.....
Cheryl, you said:
"Personally, I believe that if there is a God, he would love all of his children regardless without condemnation."
(I'll learn to copy and paste properly one day)
Yes, He does, as He does murderers, adulterers, thieves and good ol' gossipers. But He has also said homosexuality is a sin and it would be hypocritical of anyone calling themselves Christian to say otherwise.
HOWEVER, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God hates homosexuals.
Jesus died for everyone from the gayest to the straightest.
I can't say definitively that homosexuality is in the genes anymore than I can say being a murderer or thief is genetic although science may discover that one day. But I would tend to agree more with Alexander that there is a choice to be made.
That's just my Christian perspective on it.
Sam
Comment by Samantha Elley
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And in having said that it is a choice, I agree that no-one has the right to "force" their beliefs on anyone. That goes both ways too.
And to the OP on your paradox, I think sexuality is basicallly instinctual but upbringing and surroundings do have alot to do with the choices people make and that includes sexual orientation.
Hope I make sense.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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homosexuality is not mentioned in the bible
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Comment by http://www.orble.com/adrian-2/
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people choose to be homosexual because they think it is 'cool' and the 'in' thing but little do they realise that there is a special place in hell waiting for them unless they can repent their evil ways.
if homosexuality is not a choice than why is it that some gay people stop being gay and repent their gay ways so that they can rejoin the church?
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Comment by Jeff Musall
So since the Bible is clear that Homosexuality is a sin, is not in question.
Huh? Maybe it theocracy land, but to be a thinking person requires going beyond just the bible.
Cheryl
As I stated above, religion seems to be the big sticking point. As a non-religious person, I find it strange that someone would expect me to follow the word of the bible when I don't believe in it.
In the mind of the religious, for everyone to follow the bible is the way it should be because "god commands it." A catch 22 of sorts - do we believe because we read it, or do we read it because we believe it, and then get stuck in the lack of choice? By that I mean the bible offers the "choice" to follow or be tortured for all eternity....even the cruelest of human dictators eventually allow their victims the escape of death, god gives no such release.
Aimee,
it seems the choice you made was to be a Neanderthal (no disrespect to Neanderthals meant)
Samantha,
I can't say definitively that homosexuality is in the genes anymore than I can say being a murderer or thief is genetic although science may discover that one day. But I would tend to agree more with Alexander that there is a choice to be made.
Does the "sin" of homosexuality rise to the level of comparison with murder?
Jesus would not approve,
people choose to be homosexual because they think it is 'cool' and the 'in' thing but little do they realise that there is a special place in hell waiting for them unless they can repent their evil ways.
If that were true I would have made the "choice" long ago just to anger theocrats...
Morgan,
as always, spot on...
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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1. To Cheryls question is Homosexuality a choice?
A. Yes. I believe it is our God Given free will choice and that while we are born into a sinful nature, We are the ones responsible for obeying Gods laws.
2. Does God love all his children?
A. Yes according to the Bible He does. Here's the Verse.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
So that leads us to the question that Morgan brought up.
3. Is homosexuality a sin?
A. Yes according to the Bible it is. Here's the Verses.
Leviticus 20:18]If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
This is the more well known verse in the Old Testament. Others that talk of Sodom and Gomorrah exists but for space sake we'll leave them out.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Response to Jeff's Statement. You are absolutely right an educated person does look beyond the Bible to other sources for information, however as a Christian, for me the Bible is the authority to which I weigh all other sources of information.
I hope this was helpful in clarifying my position and thanks for all the great replies.
Comment by Mr Nice Guy
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BTW - while I'm not an overtly religious person if you think the Bible teaches that God hates homosexuals and lesbians, you are very wrong.
The God of the Bible that I was brought up with loves people of all persuasions, all races and all lifestyles, because . . .He is love.
Comment by Jeff Musall
so you're telling me you follow all of the dictates of Leviticus? Or just the ones that allow for bigotry and hatred?
Mr. Nice Guy, that's exactly my point - some things just are, and should just be. It's part of a person's identity, and should be left out of the purview of others to decide.
Comment by Doug Pollard
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At no time subsequently did I have two desires to choose from - I have always desired other men. So it's ridiculous to talk about choice in this context.
If I had two desires to choose from, I'd be bisexual, not gay.
From a lifetime of observation, I would say that human sexuality is not an either/or, left/right. straight/gay proposition.
We're more like birds perched on a telegraph wire. There's a big cluster by the hetero pole, and a smaller one at the homo pole, and everyone else is perched somewhere inbetween.
Time also plays a role: I've had friends who were unquestioningly heterosexual in their teens and twenties who later found themselves attracted to their own sex, and vice versa.
Incidentally, this is true for all life, not just human life.
The basic point is this: heterosexuality is not the norm. Diversity is the norm - and a refusal to open your eyes and see that is the problem.
Don't take a template and try to force people into it: study people and describe reality.
Comment by Kleonaptra
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American Dad. Episode - "Lincoln Lover"
Stan decides he wants to be gay. Because its a choice. Guess what happens?
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For those interested the article can be found on my blog heretic hunters a link to this blog has already been posted with that article.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Your SCRIPTURE is what's wrong! Why does a person believe? The bible (or other holy book) tells them so...why? because it tells them...where's the proof? The bible says it's the word of god...and how do you know it's true? Well, the miracles...where do you find them? The word of god...see the problem? Show me one iota of empirical proof that seperates your belief system from the ancient Greeks, Celts, etc..that everyone regard as myth..
And yes, I think if someone will pull that verse out of Leviticus and use it to justify their world view, it is a sign of bigotry, no doubt about it..
Comment by Jeff Musall
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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My point about comparing scripture to scripture was for those who stated that nowhere in the bible can it be found homosexuality is a sin or that sinners would not perish in hell. Which by the way I don't believe God would punish someone for an eternity for sin nor does the Bible say that. Sinners are in fact punished but not thru eternal suffering bu thru complete destruction.
So again I ask all those that agree with your point yet agree from there position or interpretation of the bible are they bigoted or raciest or is the question really not religion but more of tolerance?
If you had read the post I made you would see that I stated God is a loving God who wants not one single soul to perish. I also condemned the sin not the person. I guess I'm lucky because if my view on God is wrong then I'm out a sum total of 0 but if your wrong.
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Most professionals believe that in reality there is no such thing call queer or straight people. The reason queer and straight would come into existence, is because we as human been are very structurlize animal and as a reuslt, human society is a very structurized one also, as a result, we structurlized ourself to a certain function.
For example, most professional believe that female are a lot more flexible to move between both queer and straight relationship then male, because for female relationship is something that is more social base e.g. romance, while for male on the other hand relationship is more in term of practical function base e.g. reproduction.
I can go into more detail, but it get really complicated. But in generaling sense, it is believe that human do not choice who will become gay, society does. I can go into the detail, but it is very difficult to explain and include a lot of psychology elements of things and social and culture analysis etc.
Comment by Doug Pollard
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The stories were written in different eras by different people in different languages.
They have since been translated and often mistranslated many times, sometimes through two or three languages.
At every stage well-meaning writers and translators have amended the words to add their own gloss. "They can't have meant this, it doesn't make sense what they must mean is that."
There are many different versions even in English.
Therefore it is very difficult, if not impossible, to say with certainty what any of it really means..
For example, the concept of a homosexual, or even of homosexuality, did not exist in biblical times. Therefore passages relating to male male sexual relations must have been referring to something else - but we're not sure what.
Pagan temple prostitution? Greek and Roman social traditions?
Which stories are in the Bible and which are not has been subject to various political decisions by various churches.
So the RC bilble is not the same as the Anglican bible.
Put all this together and you have a book full of ideas and stories that we must take with a very very large pinch of salt.
Maybe even a pillar.
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Comment by Doug Pollard
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The purpose of humanity, if it has one (which is debatable), isn't to mindlessly reproduce itself until it's converted all the matter on the planet into nothing but people-meat.
If that's th reason for living, then the species has a serious mental disorder.
And I wasn't talking about best mates - I had/have some of those - this was specifically sexual. I know the difference.
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Comment by Mountain Fog
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well, there is one big problem with the religious zealots, they rely on the wording of the Bible (which one by the way?) as being both an accurate record of what was said, over a couple of thousand of years ago, which has been reinterpreted again and again, changed back, then adapted and changed again.... and all to fit the mores of the times, and the political and social desires of the (eventually) ruling Catholic theocracy based in Rome.
Well, bugger me senseless!
The language of the original 'texts' and their definitive meaning, once translated from Aramaic, to Hebrew, to Latin, then eventually, into English (not done till the late Middle Ages I believe), means one unarguable thing; the translation you read CANNOT be a perfect translation, therefore losing the meaning of the original text. Just Latin alone, one word can be interpreted in MANY ways.
Then there is the sociological customs of the times in which it was written;
I will give you and example;
Jesus speaks at the wedding, and then performs a "miracle", of turning water into wine.
What is MOST LIKELY is this; going on a much more recent interpretation of the original language, by etymologists and anthropologists, together with the known customs of the time it was written, Jesus was most likely saying this;
We celebrate this wedding not with wine, as do the rich, but with water, yet both are the same. Jesus would take that view, that the poor's weddings are as sacred and to be as revered as the weddings of the rich.
One other thing... ONLY THE GROOM spoke at a wedding in those days and within those customs!!!
The Vatican 'management', the Vatican bank of today's world, are both a blight and a perversion of all that is actually good in the teachings in the Bible. I refer you all to a book entitled "In God's Name" by David Yallop, which details the murder of Pope John Paul 1 and the crimminal machinations of the Vatican bank.
However, the Bible CANNOT be taken either entirely historically literally, or as the actual word of God. The way it was written was as an instructional moral 'fable'. It works well for instructing children and the simple minded who do not question the "mysteries" for instance... and it still works wonders on both today!
Homosexuality is not a choice, why would anyone want to choose being regarded as illegal in law, (still so in many countries) or to be regarded as cursed by God, and to be the victim of all the moronic and mindless hatred perpetrated against them over the years.
Ancient Rome and Greece, both regarded bisexuality as normal.
These two great civilizations changed the face of the European world, in particular, persecuting many, so it is of little wonder to me, that verses were inserted into the Bible to justify vilification of other cultures.
cheers
and one other thing;
it never ceases to amaze me, how unchristian, self professed 'Christians' can be! There is no room, ANYWHERE, in true Christianity, to indulge in bigotry and hatred.
cheers
fog
P.S. Good to be back!
Comment by Samantha Elley
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You wrote:
"Does the "sin" of homosexuality rise to the level of comparison with murder?"
A sin is a sin regardless of the level, that's what I was trying to get at and hence threw in gossiping to balance it out.
But as MNG says 'God is Love' and gets past all that, wanting to show people that He loves them regardless. He did this through Jesus dying for us.
Take care,
Sam
Comment by The wonderful Peter Yang
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So, I figure I may as well, put things in perspective once and for all (Sorry, if I will offend anyone, as a result.)
1. The last time I check this country is not call the Catholic Republic of Australia and it will never be refer to that, it is call the Commonwealth of Australia and when it become a Republic it is more likely to be rename as something like e.g. Democratic Republic of Australia.
So, we are not a Catholic state, despite we have a high concentration of people of such religion.
So, the bible is not a justify excuse for a nation to attack them.
2. If our religion believe is a justify excuse for us to discriminate and attack people, then we may as well, give a free pass to Binladin to attack Australia and let the Taliban to continue hold dictatorship over Afghanistan.
3. The last time I check this is a free country and the gay community aren't hurting anybody for been gay.
4. Because the gay community aren't hurting anybody for been gay and because attacking them in the name of religion is unjustifiable excuse, people should just stop attacking them for been gay once and for all. As for whether homosexuality is normal or not, it doesn't matter and it doesn't justify any form of attack either.
I am actually getting very annoy with all of these bible related debate about homosexuality, so what if it is a sin in the bible? Big deal. I mean here we are fighting a war in Afghanistan and Iraq against some religious radicals and here we are back home acting like religions radicals ourself. Man, speaking about the irony.
Once again sorry if I offended anyone.
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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Weren't the Catholics the biggest purveyors of homosexual pedophilia throughout the world and didn't they try to cover it up?
I guess the final thing that seems to amaze me is the folks that think there being attacked by me personally. I've not attacked anyone just provided a biblical account of the view on homosexuality. The Bible I read differs greatly from the Catholic, Mary worshiping pagans. However it is very clear on who the judge is and its not me . I don't mind being ridiculed for my beliefs that's not a problem often times people will shot the messenger for the message so I'm used to it. Like I said great post.
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Comment by The wonderful Peter Yang
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Thanks for your applause and for the record our real enemy are the gangsters and the communist and they are the ones we should be focusing our attack on, not the gays.
Comment by Jeff Musall
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I get more than a little tired of having the bible thrown at me - it's only a book, people, or rather, a collection of stories put between two covers by a myriad of people over several thousand years.
It seems to me that the people who fetishize the bible in this way are committing the sin of idolatry.
The book is a book ABOUT a God - the book itself is not a God. To slavishly worship every word in it is to worship the book rather than the God the book is supposedly about.
The proper attitude to the bible is to intelligently engage with it, not stick it on a candlelit pedestal and dance round it - you might as well build an altar of Harry Potter tomes, or grovel before the trinity of Lord of The Rings novels.
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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My intention when I came here was simply to explain a Biblical perspective on the issue, not condemn anyone, Judgment is not my job. Good luck to you Mr. Pollard and try not to get so worked up.
Comment by Samantha Elley
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You wrote:
"it's only a book, people, or rather, a collection of stories put between two covers by a myriad of people over several thousand years."
That's where you miss the point, I think, and it's an important one. To all Christians (that includes Catholics too) the bible is the authorative word of God, hence it holds ALOT of weight (and I'm not just talking the pages).
And while we have a judicial system that is based on the Judeo-Christian heritage that the bible espouses, there will always be someone in the law-making process that will fight against homosexual marriage, abortion etc. etc.
Hence, when Jeff puts up an open question as this post is, at some point God and His word will enter the fray.
To get the answers that Jeff and other gay and pro-gay people may have wanted he should have put a sub-text 'Only non-believers in God may answer'.
I promise not to throw a bible at you, just wanting you to see why it comes up in discussions such as these
Sam
Comment by Jeff Musall
Alexander, of course we decry all religious bigotry....but this blog is read primarily by Austrailians and Americans, and in those countries christian fundamentalism is the problem. I have no illusions that if I lived in some countries I wouldn't be able to be so forceful in my opinions...I also have no illusions that many christians in America would treat me just as badly if given the chance...
And Samantha, to those who don't follow it, it carries no weight. And it's a myth that we are based on "Judeo Christian" as the concepts of right and wrong developed in other cultures well before the bible was around. It is more likely the bible reflects earlier traditions.
Comment by Samantha Elley
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You wrote:
"it's a myth that we are based on "Judeo Christian" as the concepts of right and wrong developed in other cultures well before the bible was around."
I actually got that opinion from a (non-christian) lawyer, so not knowing your background, please forgive me if I tend to agree with him over you. It's not a case of who was first with the right and wrong, more what culture developed the first form of government that Western culture is based on.
You also wrote:
"to those who don't follow it, it carries no weight."
Anymore than the Koran does for me but I'm not Muslim and I don't live in a Muslim country. But we do live in a majority Christian country, so even if you don't follow the bible it affects you, as long as the laws of the land are based on it in some way.
I was just trying to explain to Doug, that's why God and the Bible will get mentioned in debates such as these.
Take care,
Sam
Comment by Doug Pollard
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As such the Bible (Koran, or any other idolised book) may have had relevance historically, but can have none going forward.
Faith and politics are two separate spheres and should not be mixed. It's like everyone in North Korea having to be Communist - the fact of the matter is that no matter how much pressure is applied, not everyone is, and to force them to behave as if they were is a dictatorship of unreason.
I have no objection to you applying Christian (Koranic etc. according to faith ) principles to your own lives, but you have no right whatsoever to advocate for the imposition of your faiths laws on anyone of another faith or none.
Comment by Samantha Elley
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You wrote:
"you have no right whatsoever to advocate for the imposition of your faiths laws on anyone of another faith or none."
Except maybe the 'thou shalt not murder' and 'thou shalt not steal' ones...
But that's why discussions happen because there will always be people who see the bible as very relevant in their personal lives as well as the political realm.
While Australia (and the US) are multi-faith because there are many different religions represented, it is by and large still majority Christian.
I totally agree with you that no-one should force you to believe something you don't, and I certainly would never be so presumptious ,anymore than I should be expected to believe or follow something that grates against my beliefs.
That's the beauty of democracy. Is that we can have these discussions and debates. My gripe is when such discussions crumble into a name-calling, disrespecting schoolyard 'punch-up'.
So far so good....LOL
Take care,
Sam
Comment by Mountain Fog
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All very true, however, it is indeed an irony and probably bemusing to the religious zealot to realize that, the law courts use the bible to swear to tell the truth upon, yet, should ever the bible be put in the dock and tried, it would fail the test of evidence!
It is a good book (generally) however, it also espouses some rather bigoted views and supports violence, particularly in the Old Testament.
It is more a book of the social mores of times past, than it is actually historical fact, it is full of parables 9stories not fact) to help people understand an ethical point.
Judaism was the precursor of Christianity, and it too denounced same sex relations, but that does not make it "god's word", nor does it make it morally right.
Interestingly, it is one place where all the main religions seem to agree upon, the persecution and ostracision of gay men and women; this prejudice was man made, not created by some mythical superhero!
Lets talk about the creation of the world next?!! Seven days anyone?
cheers
fog
Comment by Samantha Elley
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I shall make this my last post on this blog as I think it's gone off topic from what Jeff wrote, but would be happy to discuss more the validity of the Bible in the realms of law and history with you or anyone interested.
It actually does get used as a textbook in some university ancient history courses (so I've been told by students of said courses). So it has quite a bit of historical fact within it's pages.
The Bible isn't a science book, well at least not as we understand science today, so proving the invalidity of creation in it isn't an issue for Christians.
It is the most unique of books for it's history, the number of authors and the many different styles of writing in it. Definitely worth a post all it's own whether you agree on it's validity as God's word or not.
Take care,
Sam
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Comment by <===8 6669
Comment by sirron10
Comment by Anonymous
Are you a fucking idiot? You obviously failed your high school biology class.
How do you explain people being born with red hair, when neither of their parents have red hair? Is there some magical gnome that goes around and sprinkles fairy dust on babies that determines their hair colour... NO it's fucking GENETICS!
Someone doesn't need to have red hair to carry the gene. So if homosexuality is genetic then it would be reasonable to assume that the parents themselves wouldn't have to be gay!
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
Current thinking appears to indicate that genes which encode for something else of evolutionary value (and are thus conserved and passed down the generations) also encode for homosexuality.
But this is a sterile (pardon the pun) argument: Homosexuality is part of the normal spectrum of possible human sexualities.
Or to put it more simply, heterosexuality isn't normal, just common. Diversity is normal.
As to crude comments about anal intercourse - are you pretending heterosexuals don't do it? Because I can assure you, they do. Some straight men like their girlfriends to strap on a double ender and do them oocasionally, for example.
And there are many gay men who don't take it in the back door - it's not a defining characteristic. You're gay because you fall in love/lust with members of your own sex, not because of how you express that desire.
Comment by sirron
Sprinkle too much fairy dust on a baby he may become gay. Why are you so hostile? Can't abide a different opinion? Ever notice how our population is getting darker?Genetics at work-slow but sure blondes are dying out. Not counting bottle blonde.
Comment by sirron
Your logic is diverse! I've been straight all my life and now I'm being lectured on straight sexual acts by a gay man? Would you like for me to advise you on gay sex ? This is crazy!
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
Plus I ran a sex-shop in Amsterdam's red light district once upon a time, and became friends with many if the girls working the brothels and sex clubs.
I have heterosexual and bisexual friends and neighbours.
I know a lot of researchers working in the field of human sexuality.
Being gay doesn't confine my knowledge or experience.
OK sirron, I've shown you mine, now you show me yours
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
in a strange way it is probably homophobia itself which causes hereditary inclinations towards homosexuality to become more widespread
brow-beating and shaming gays and lesbians into hetero marriages, sexuality conversions, and illogical "how do you know unless youve tried it" justifications for collecting straight notches on your belt, probably leads to more gay children than "nature" could ever produce
also, Sirron, if Doug cant discuss hetero sex, maybe you shouldnt be discussing gay reproduction, you wouldnt want to come across as a hypocrite or anything
Comment by sirron
Comment by sirron
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
For those who claim the Bible is the unadulterated, pristine word of God unsullied by the hands of mankind;
You all need to read the Egyptian Book of the Dead(The Papyrus of Ani.
This extremely ancient hieroglyphic text (4500 BC, or BCE as it is now referred to) pre-dates the earliest formation of the Jewish Kingdom of Israel by Saul, who reigned from 1047BC to 1007BC). (Abraham, whose existance is disputed by many historians, would likely have been from 2000 BC to 1850BC, at 1250BC we find the exodus of Jews from Egypt with Moses, and the formation of the Talmud.).
Within the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead and its related earlier papyri texts, may be found the Ten Commandments (among a multitude of others), and the 'Biblcial' psalms.
What this proves;
That Judaism, the precursor and 'parent' of Christianity, had borrowed, assimilated, the more ancient laws and psalms of the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
This means;
Judaism and Christianity did not get these 'teachings' from the mouth of God, they took them from a more ancient belief system, which, one could still argue, for those of faith, that those texts came from God.
What all this means is; the words of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, are combinations of ideals, ideas and beliefs derived from other earlier belief systems, and the social mores of the time, THAT IS, from men, by men, to men; ergo, the laws and statements regarding homosexuality, for example, are PURELY and ONLY laws derived by men, NOT God and reflect the social climate of the day.
Peter rightly puts, why all the blather about the Bible and Christianity?
Well, for one thing, without the self serving justification of the "word of God" in the bible, homophobes would have to admit their argument is entirely derived from their own petty twisted fear and hatred of gays.
The Bible, a good book in many ways, is just a book, it is not the word of"God"!
Cheers and do have a nice day!
fog
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
Whether Amsterdam's red light district provides an unbiased sample of the rich diversity of human sexuality, I cannot say. But as I said, I know a number of researchers in the field of human sexuality, and have read extensively on the subject, and what I saw in Amsterdam largely concurs with what reputable research tells us - that heterosexual sex in the missionary position may be very common, but it isn't normal. What's normal is the rich diversity and fluidity I referred to in a much earlier post here.
I might add that womens sexuality is generally much more fluid and less fixed than mens, or to express it in the words of a married heterosexual male friend, "before I was married, I knew several girls who considered themselves heterosexual but also occasionally had sex with other women, and no-one considered them odd, or even gay, least of all themselves. They just liked having sex with another woman occasionally. One of them is now my wife."
Many of the younger men I know reject the labels 'straight' and 'gay' and see themselves as simply 'sexual'. 'Open to love from whatever quarter', as one expressed it.
Again, these personal observations are backed up by most reputable research into human sexuality in Western nations where the dead hand of religion has been shaken off and people are free to discover who they really are, not what some man with an imaginary sky-daddy and a moribund book of fairy-stories tells them they ought to be.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Seriously, its as enlightening as it is funny. Adresses the issue PERFECTLY.
Comment by samantha_elley
you are funny!
Didya hit your home run? Didya feel good making your point?
The Egyptians feature quite prominently in the Bible. The Hebrews (pre-Israelites) lived amongst them for many years as slaves until God directed Moses to take them out of there. (Something to do with a stubborn pharoah and lots of plagues).
The Bible records the oral history of the Hebrews from the beginning of time so...SCORE....Bible is older.
However, if being the oldest book was an indicatiion of truer words, every major faith could have their own argument.
I'm inclined to believe that you are not really an historian because my readings on the subject have indicated that 'most historians' don't dispute the existence of Abraham, esp. when two major faiths claim him as an ancestor and there are pages of genealogy that trace back to him in the Bible alone.
_______
"the words of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, are combinations of ...ideas and beliefs derived from other earlier belief systems, and the social mores of the time, THAT IS, from men, by men, to men; ergo, the laws and statements regarding homosexuality.... are PURELY and ONLY laws derived by men"
Your quote.
__________
Therefore the above statement smacks of convenient subjectivity on your part.
As do mine. And that has been the crux of my previous points. As long as you have people believing the Bible to be God's word and those who don't there will be disagreement on the subject of homosexuality. being right or wrong.
God is not a homophobe. He loves gays and straights equally because we are ALL sinners. What He cares about is our souls and where we will end up in eternity.
Now that's worth an argument.
Take care,
Sam
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
yes, thanks Samantha, I feel fabulous!
But, rather than join you in abandoning intelligent debate in favour of condescention, I will further illustrate my point.
The Bible records the oral history of the Hebrews from the beginning of time so...SCORE....Bible is older.
sorry, that is hardly empiric evidence!
Oral histories are notorious for fabrication and embroidery, often there is no way of establishing when, or even where, or by whom and by how many, the story came from. often it is an amalgamation of stories/laws/beliefs/wisdom, eventually being attributed to one person.
However, the verasity of the antiquity of the Papyrus of Ani is irrefutable. It has been proven to be of great antiquity, MUCH greater than the oral histories of the early Hebrews and so immensely older than the Dead Sea Scrolls and the relatively modern New Testament texts.
The Papyrus of Ani has a well studied, subjective and unbiased interpretation from which to read from, unlike the Bible, which covers many eras, authors and re-interpretations!
The Bible has been transliterated throughout the ages and has succumbed to many alterations and omissions. Even some conservative Christian scholars, who usually tend to err on the side of their belief system, have also, in recent times, questioned the authorship of some of the epistles, for example.
Also, the interpretation of the original texts can be taken many different ways, as we see in the various versions of the Bible favoured by the Catholic Church (over the eras) and its many differing splinter groups of other Christian denominations, all of whom mostly choose to ignore the context of the time it is said to be written, that is, the customs and meaning of language of the day, and instead imbue the interpretation with a leaning more towards supporting the current dogma of the era, than subjective interpretive fact.
There are many historians (and many of us commoners) who now have access to the unadulterated texts, (photographs of the Scrolls' texts), thanks to an American University who had a copy of the micro-fisched Scrolls and it published same without checking with the Israelii or Vatican people in charge of the Scrolls' deciphering.
Much ado happened, but the horse had already bolted. So, now the Israeli authority in charge is busily making the original texts available.
So, we now can analyse the actual texts within context of customs and a more subjective interpretation of the language, eliminating the problems, for example, of jumping from Aramaic, to Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin and on to English.
When the Bible is viewed through this new research, a much more realistic story is to be found. It in no way, (to my way of thinking) diminishes the importance and value of Bible's more noble teachings, in fact, I say it makes it incredibly stronger as a societal guide for reflection, by demystifying and even de-mythologizing its content.
Comment by samantha-elley
Food Journo
The Sandwich Shak
Vintage Foodie
Little House among the Canefields
That's cool!
While I disagree with you on the pitfalls of oral history, as they are considered very valid in historical circles as a means to understanding where a people group has come from (eg. Australian Aborigines are big users of telling their story orally.) it doesn't bother me that documents are older than the bible itself.
To me truth doesn't change, it may get discovered though, which is why it is good to always research and check facts. Many discoveries within the bible have been made to further prove God's existence and Jesus' life on earth, so it's all good.
By the way, I do apologise for coming across as condescending. It's hard to get tone in discussions like this and my comments didn't come across as light-hearted as I would have liked.
Take care,
Samantha
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
thank you for the apology, and of course, the tyranny of the typed message, often comes across in an unintended way!
It is true, of course, that much oral history has been proved, through various other corroberating sources, to be actual, to some, or to a large part.
What I was trying to say, in my (probably annoyingly) pedantic way is, the language of the Bible can, and has been, interpreted in so many ways, depending on the inclination of the authority of the 'overseers' at the time.
The Papyrus of Ani is really only of interest when one comes across statements that allude to the Bible writers being the only origin of particular trains of thought/prayer/beliefs, when that is patently not so, and can be proven in numerous instances.
I am, as I hope you are, of the opinion that that there is room for everyone's belief system, and to imagine an all Omnipotent Being, God, not taking into account the time and cultural influences of a particular people, that then causes a difference in their own perceptions of God, is terribly naive, to be kind, and down right bigoted to be brutally honest.
Therefore, to my mind, the notion that God invented the ideal that homosexuals were "an abomination" smacks of societal opinion of the time it was written, rather than the Creator, who made them (and everyone else), in the first place.
Only people ignorant of psychology and the natural world of biology, would presume homosexuality was a decision of choice.
I know that some 'gays' are sado-masochists, but, that is certainly not my bag! If I had the choice, I would definitely choose being 'straight'; so much less social and religious bigotry, and phobia, to be encountered.
cheers,
and Gold Bless your cotton socks!
fog
Comment by Anonymous
The Christian congregation, established by Jesus Christ in the first century of our common era, is subject to God's moral standards as set out in the Holy Scriptures. At 1 Corinthians 6:18, Christians are admonished, “Flee from fornication. Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but he that is practicing fornication is sinning against his own body.” Simply put, fornication is deviant, illicit, or immoral sexual behavior, including sex outside of a scriptural marriage, adultery, sexual activity between persons of the same sex, sexual abuse of children, and human sexual interaction with animals.
So, are there not really two issues involved when discussing acceptance and tolerance? The first issue is one's sexual orientation which may have been affected by inherited sin and possibly other factors. But, whether one is a homosexual or an unmarried heterosexual, the second issue is, Will one choose to lead a virtuous, chaste lifestyle by practicing celibacy, or will one choose to lead a sinful, immoral lifestyle by practicing fornication? It is really that simple. If society in general rejects God's moral standards in favor of finding heterosexual and homosexual fornication acceptable, how long will it take for society to find the sexual abuse of children and bestiality equally acceptable?
We hear a lot of talk today about values, and not so much talk about virtues anymore. Could that be because people may pick and choose their own values, whereas virtues are determined by God? Discriminating between virtuous and immoral behavior used to be championed by society in general. Have we really become more enlightened? Call me old-fashioned, but whatever happened to chastity?
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
I find it odd that you do not reveal your avatar ID, that hardly promulgates the idea that you have the courage of your own convictions.
Anyway, I take note you cherry pick from the Bible, asserting that it is the sole arbiter of social mores of the times and through the ages to this very day.
That is nonsense!
If one supported your argument, then human sacrifice, of a son by a father, for instance, would be deemed a natural and legal right today, it is not, it is murder. Also, the idea of marrying, they married children to other children, the older being the male, that is not accpetable today. They also married children to older men.
There are inumerable instances where the accepted ideals of Biblical times are considered both barbaric, evil and perverted by today's standards.
As for the Bible being the "word of God", I also contest that; to wit, the psalms and the commandments are found in a book that predates the original papyrus texts by some thousands of years, that book being The Egyptian Book of the Dead.
The alleged quotations of Jesus were written decades after Jesus' death, in AD70 onwards, and suffered rewrites and re-interpretations over the centuries, and at the behest of the first bishops of Christianity, of Rome and environs afar, their 12th century synod set the patriarchical values, diminishing the role of the women, in particular Mary Magdelene, in the Bible.
The Bible, while full off good ideals, and as the basis of our Judeo-Christian legal ethics, is to be admired, but not taken either literally, or as the actual word of God.
It is a book of wisdom, told in parables so that simpler people will grasp the meaning and live their lives more peacefully and fruitfully.
As regarding homosexuality, because it was the original Jewish laws, not "God's" law, that forbade it, the social mores of the time.
Today, we accept homosexuality because it is a natural occurrence, (as described by psychiatric medicine) both in humans and in the animal kingdom, (as described by naturalist scientists) it is not a choice, it is a nature of an individual or animal.
Those whom insist it is not natural, are projecting their religious/societal backgrounds and their own subjectivity.
As I said before, the Bible supports many things which are unacceptable and illegal by today's standards, and that includes insisting that homosexuality is unnatural and "sinful", it defies the logic of the times!
cheers and peace be with you!
fog
Comment by Anonymous